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Wow, all I can say is this post sure stirred up a lot of words.
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I'm 61 and can relate to what you're asking here, big time! I know my mother felt ignored/neglected by her mother........the other 7 kids were skinny & needed fattening up, or whatever, so my mother didn't get the attention she felt she deserved. I guess lots of kids in large families feel that way. As an only child, I felt smothered instead of 'ignored', which wasn't a great feeling either!

I also think that generation of women thought a lot more of MEN than they ever thought of women. My narcissistic mother worships the ground my son walks on, in spite of him showing her very little attention, while thinking my sweet daughter is 'less-than', in spite of her doing so much MORE for my mother. Whenever I give my mother a gift, she thanks my HUSBAND, regardless that he had nothing to DO with said gift! She flirts shamelessly with all the men she meets, while finding something to snipe at with all the women she meets. She's never been able to maintain a real friendship because there's always something wrong with the so-called friend.

I couldn't go to college either, but again, I think that was a belief of the times: women belonged at home, in the kitchen & raising children vs. out in the dog-eat-dog world of the working stiffs. I'm sorry I did not find a WAY to go to college MYSELF, and learn a profession or a trade. I blame myself for that more so than my father.

I think my father stayed with my mother because she made him feel like the biggest loser on earth. He'd tell her to divorce him, but he'd never initiate such a thing........that generation didn't believe in divorce, really and I think he truly loved her, in spite of her hideous behavior. Mother became more & more demanding & bitter since father could not give her what she wanted & deserved, children, and as her bitterness grew, so did HIS feeling of worthlessness. I was adopted, so mother had to 'settle' for the 'less than' child, not the one of her dreams. She felt she was 'doing him a favor' by staying with him, when in reality, she NEEDED a man to take care of her.

I don't have the answers to the questions you ask, that's for sure. I do know that it's not easy for us to be taking care of parents that were/are narcissistic, and that does not make us 'bad' people. Nobody should minimize what we've been through, or trivialize it, or tell us we're wrong to feel the way we do, and to pull on our big girl panties and suck it up. For me, the beauty of this forum is that most of us can understand & empathize with one another. We can share our struggles without expecting to be laughed at or put down for having such struggles. They're all valid, they're all real, and it's okay to feel the pain of those struggles and to share them. I know many contributors here have helped me through the years, as I know I've helped some myself. That's what it's all about, isn't it?
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SueC1957 Jan 2019
Yup, that IS what it's all about.
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I have to wonder why we can't be happy for those that post about an actual nice loving mom? Are we really that damaged after all of the years that we can't read a different experience without going nuclear?

When someone hijacks a thread, can we not see that? Do we have to chase them down and further hijack the thread by telling others they are not ,as entitled, as we are to have a personal opinion and experience?

When someone uses words like normal on this thread, they obviously don't get it, it's not about having a normal mom, its about those batchit crazy moms that do such loving things like burn their kids with cigarettes just because, it's about letting a man screw a little girl because you have so much hate in you that you actually get off on hurting anyone and anything, its about the mom that didn't make sure there was food in the house but had her booze and drugs and cigarettes and gambling money, did it matter her kids were starving, not for a heartbeat. So you can see how far their reality is from any actual psychey changing abuse. You can't ever understand until you've lived it. You can't battle against that folks.

Every single one of us here is entitled to our opinions and we all say what we want, just because we don't like it doesn't mean we should attack it. Can't you see, they win as soon as you defend yourself against what was said, they are laughing their ass off because they can post and create turmoil and in fighting. Think about that, seriously.

No one that has been traumaticly abused can say, it's all good, no hard feeling, yep, ill give up my life to take care of you with a smile and a song. My mom thought she was abused because she had to do the dishes, so we all know that there are perspectives of abuse and because someone says they were abused doesn't mean they have a clue what abuse looks like.

To say that someone fighting for freedom of speech is obviously an abuser is as unacceptable as the cream filled caked belittling every poster. We are all entitled to voice our opinions but i think we need to be careful that we don't act like a bunch of hens that attack someone different or weak until they leave or we kill them because we don't like what they say.

I have seen advise freely given on how to get a woman kicked out of her own house, how to hustle the system and how to hurt siblings that won't follow someone else's desires, and i have seen posters get ripped for calling out inappropriate behavior, maybe we can start the new year by letting others have their say and if we don't like it, don't read it, maybe we can encourage people to do the right thing when they ask our advice on how to break laws and maybe we can remember we are only getting one side of every story.

I am certain that some will think I'm a fine one to talk, yep, the above applies to me as well.

We have some really knowledgable posters that freely share their professional advice, free of charge, so we will attract undesirable questions but we need to show more courtesy and appreciation to one another and pray they don't leave, taking their education and experience with them.
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Heather10 Jan 2019
Is this really real:

I think the answer is simple. It is off topic to the subject. It is also insensitive.

I work with abused people. It would be like me sitting back in my chair and saying, well I had wonderful parents. Sorry yours were so crappy. But aren't you just happy for me that mine were so wonderful.

When someone has an issue the best thing to do is to offer support and comfort. Not start bragging about your own wonderful situation.

Telling an abused person, who has just complained about abusive parents, that they themselves had wonderful parents, is insensitive unkind and is pointless because it does not offer comfort and support. It likely makes the person feel worse.

I think that is rather simple to understand, if a person is intellectual and empathetic.

That's not to say that these abused people may not be happy for someone who has good parents. It's just to say that when they seek support for their plight, that is the wrong time to start rhapsodizing about your own wonderful parents.

Doing so would make the person feel worse, and that is abusive pure and simple, by any standard of empathy.

Btw: informing someone that they hijacked the thread in a way that can be hurtful to the original poster is not hijacking the thread.

It is also a way to offer support to the original poster who posted the original topic.

You do also realize that your are also disagreeing with other opinions, even as you talk about freedom of speech, etc, right??????????????
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I don't think all women were like this but many were. I have been widowed 3 years and my dad died 6 months after my husband. I am 59, my mom is 86. She is selfish, self-centered, manipulative, nasty and non-stop critical of everything and everyone. I understand why she is like she is, she tells me at least once a week. Her dad died in WW2, her mother met another man and ran off with the guy taking my mothers sister and leaving my mom with my great grandmother and great aunt to raise. Living through the depression money was to be saved and never wasted on silly things. She married my dad right out of High school and started having children, 6 in all. My father spoiled her rotten, especially after she had an emotional break and tried to kill herself. She spent 2 month in a mental hospital and years in therapy. You would think she would work her issues out, but no She moved in with me 1 year after my dad died to save money. My dad never said no to her and as a result they were so far into debt about 15 years ago they filed bankruptcy. She moved a 2 bedroom apartment into my 4 bed,2bath house with a full basement and she has so much stuff it takes up 3/4 of my basement, 3 bedrooms and most of my kitchen, who seriously needs 5 full sets of dishes, she has 14 cast iron pans and 4 sets of flatware, won't even get into the decorations and baking stuff. and she shops online and in stores non-stop. She tells me she deserves it because she did not get to have anything she wanted when she was a child. She truly believes that she was short changed in life, she went to secretarial School but "had" to quit to raise the kids. She had 4 boys in 4 years because it was expected that they have a large family, my sister and I came 3 and 5 years after the boys. Her therapist told her to get a job and have time away from the house, she worked retail at night and hated it so when I went to college I got her to go with me and she got a business degree. She then worked for many years in a large bank. Now she won't volunteer because her "talents are too valuable to work for no pay" and she won't go to the senior center because "they have nothing in common with her" even though she has never met any of "them". I am going broke tipping wait staff in restaurants because she is so nasty to them that I just automatically give them a $20 tip for putting up with her, she tells me "people were horrible to me for all those years in retail, why should I be nice to anyone waiting on me" (My father would not go into a store with her because she was so nasty he was embarrassed). And everything is about her. Me: "mom, I'm going to the gym". Mom: "I guess that would be ok, I've been home alone for 9 hours while you work, what is 2 more". We go visit my daughter half way across the country. She is nice enough to allow us to stay with her, Mom: "there is clutter everywhere" Me: "She works full time, her husband refuses to help with housework and she has a 2 year old and 3 month old, I will pick up the clutter" Mom: Well, don't expect me to help, it's not my mess" (no one asked her to) She will deliberately pull out a cookie, candy in front of her great grand kids who are like 2 and 3 years old and when they ask for some she will say "no, this is all mine, you can't have any" and she will try to sit and eat it in front of them while they cry. She will take a toy of theirs and say "this is mine, I'm keeping it" and keep that up until they cry. Then she tells my daughter or son their child is a spoiled brat." I have gotten into the habit of giving her instructions like I did my kids. We are going to visit, do not speak unless something nice is coming out of your mouth. Do not make the children cry. This visit she asked my daughter why she nurses so much, she nurses on demand, my daughter said docs prefer demand feeding now. mom said "well, guess I was a horrible mother in that too" Me, yeah mom, it's all about you. Mom, sulks for 10 hours. It's exhausting raising a mom.
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Sulisminerva Jan 2019
Rosedaughter60, this sounds so much like other people I've known, and in some cases, am related to, alas. Whether the selfishness and nastiness is down to dementia, or a personality disorder, I don't know. I'm no psychiatrist but it sounds like your mother has a rip-roaring case of narcissistic personality disorder, which is a mental illness. And hard to cure; the person with NPD has to first recognize that they have a problem, and be willing to change. In short, your mother is mentally ill. Don't give in to her guilt-tripping and nastiness. Don't beat yourself up for the way she is. It is NOT your fault. IGNORE her as much as possible, without actually being neglectful of her real needs. Don't take her anywhere if she is rude to people, and make sure you tell her why. Take time for yourself, and see a therapist. I would also recommend talking to a lawyer about the situation, especially if you think she might start harming others (beyond just being nasty). A lawyer can also help, as it sounds like you're dealing with someone who would refuse to plan her estate, write a will, or grant a POA to you when it is needed. (If it helps your mood, think about the money you can make selling off all her stuff after she's gone). PS: And as for that son-in-law, he needs to learn that REAL MEN HELP WITH THE HOUSEWORK!
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OMG it's a book to be written, for sure! I am 64 and moved into mom's (my childhood) home to care for her after 6 falls that landed her in the hospital each time...remember that old saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions?" Or "no good deed goes unpunished"? I am looking for an escape from her to going on vacation, staying with a friend, RV-ing across America...
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Twinkie do us all a favor and LEAVE this thread. You continue to be judgemental and it’s not necessary or helpful.
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Heather10 Jan 2019
Worried Cali:

I agree. It is wonderful for Twinkie that she has decided to forgive her abusive/narcissistic parents and move on.

Still, Twinkie, has no right to further abuse others who have RIGHTFULLY REFUSED TO FORGIVE THEIR ABUSERS.

Enabling abusive behavior is likely the reason why there are so many abusive parents who get away with it.

And also WHY THE ABUSIVE CYCLE CONTINUES DOWN THE FAMILY LINE.

In some European countries, emotional abuse is a crime.

In the US a parent is only considered abusive if the child shows physical bruises.

IMO, enabling abuse and ignoring it is just as bad as being an abuser.
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Hi Twinkie,
I'm going to try to leave emotions out if this. I (truly) am glad you had an epiphany at an early age that none of your circumstances were you're fault or problem. That is a sign that you've "worked through" the bad situations you were in. For some of us, this process has taken years, if not decades, and some are still "stuck" and are still working on it. It's easy (once you have "seen the light") to say-"Just do this or think that" and you'll be set free from a lifetime of emotional struggling. It's too bad you don't see that it's not that easy. It's like being in quicksand, you can keep your head above it but you can't climb out altogether.

Both my parents were alcoholics too. Mom was still legally married (but separated from) alcoholic husband #1 when she met my dad (alcoholic husband to be #2) at (what else), a cocktail party. After a few nights of intercourse (not love-making), she got pregnant. She was a bigamist by marrying my dad when she legally couldn't. The first 5 years of my life were filled with drunken fights-he'd hit her with the booze bottle and she'd scratch his face (to bleeding) with her long nails, both screaming and falling down. My best friend was my teddy bear. I still have him. He was the receptacle for my tears.
This is NOTHING compared to what some posters on this board have suffered. I count myself as fortunate.

My mother felt so bad for HER mother because she had so many kids (7) and had to work so hard, so she never wanted any. (Oh well Mom, should of kept your legs closed.) She did what she had to with me but you could tell I was in the way. They divorced (thank God) when I was 5. Mom married 2 more drunks after that. Dad had his fair share of women but never married again. They played mind games with me throughout my younger life, making me believe I was crazy.
Mother was narcissistic (confirmed by my aunt) from the beginning. Mom would cut me down for my weight, my hair, etc. and was never warm nor loving. Dad said I'd wind up "barefoot and pregnant". Both were scared sh*tless that I'd actually "be somebody". I moved out at 17, never to look back. I became a nurse. I'd host holidays but that was about it.

Was I emotionally scarred? Hell yes. I finally got into therapy on the urging from my (now) ex but that's a long involved trip. I'll be 62 in 9 days and I think I've forgiven them as best I can. Not everyone makes it this far. I sure didn't ask to be born into that, nor did I expect to have a son (a gifted child) who is a heroin addict nor be caring for a 96 year old mother with Alzheimer's. I'm going to put it all aside and try to enjoy the years I have left. I will then welcome Heaven with open arms. Finally an opportunity to live without physical or emotional pain and be in the presence of the Most High!

Life hurts at times. Depending on many factors, you may "get over it" or not. Please have compassion for those that CAN'T get to that point (for whatever reason)! We are all "in process" and a work in progress to free ourselves of the suffering given us.
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Llamalover47 Jan 2019
SueC1957: Oh, I am so sorry that this happened to you! My goodness; I can see that you went through HE double hockey sticks! BIG HUGS ((( ))) to you. But congratulations on becoming a nurse and kudos to you.
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Please don't feed the . . . (lives under the bridge and scares the little billy goats gruff)
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50sChild Jan 2019
Thanks for gentle reminder. Needed that.
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@50'schild Total projection and you ran with what you 'think' I said or 'did' to you. My entire point exactly in this thread that seems populated by people who loathe someone for varying 'degrees of abuse'.
I saw where y'all jumped all over the poor soul who dared share his childhood (happy) with the armed services family etc. No one was happy with him either, how DARE he open his mouth, express an opinion contrary to x y z?
@Hope4Peace A little less snark, holier than thou righteousness and self pity please. You think I haven't 'been through something'? What is this? Who's suffered the worst abuse contest? I'm adding my two cents just like anyone else, and my two cents says that perhaps people need to look at their own attitudes/reactions towards their so/lo/mil whoever, and see if perhaps THEY THEMSELVES aren't a part of the problem. Attitude is everything.
You have no idea what my childhood was like, and I can guarantee you there was plenty to be upset about, but I'm not obsessing and fingering it like dirty laundry that I just can't seem to let go. This is what I'm pointing out in this entire thread. This whole victim identity and the endless round and round about labeling things, discovering the 'name' of something (narcissism etc) as if that's going to give you power over the suffering - it doesn't. I don't see alot of healthy direction in this thread, precisely why I wrote in, because I see a lot of people demanding recognition for their suffering from their 'aggressor' and expectations that their suffering will one day magically disappear if they can just talk about it enough, name it, etc. None of that works in my opinion. Sorry if that upsets any of you.
@Cantdance thank you for a most reasonable reply back, appreciate it. While everyone is so busy pointing fingers at aggressors and protecting their victim status, there's somehow also the expectation that victims are going to get closure from the very same people they accuse of being batchit crazy and/or mentally ill. It's simply not going to happen. Which is why I am talking about dialing it back to simple pure love. I don't care about the "I never asked to be born" argument, and the "my mother had an obligation to raise me because she popped me out, but I don't have an obligation to her now because she was such a biotch to me" etc...Yup, I'll just be at odds here.Nowhere in the bible does it say it is correct for a child to neglect their parent that I am aware. If you are dealing with someone who is mentally off, incompetent, etc, all the more reason to rise high and dig deep if you are the one giving care now to who gave you life. I don't dwell in the past. I don't believe in victim mentality. My parents were both alcoholics, I had plenty of 'abuse' growing up, but it simply was about THEM, not me! I knew that even then. I'm not 'belittling' or 'degrading' anyone on this thread - or their 'suffering' - am just saying there's a different way to look at this game, get on with it, and start living life.
@worriedinCali Right back at ya, vulgarity thrown out at someone who's simply expressing their opinion(freedom of speech etc)is sooo UN*ssholish, right? Ya just can't make this up.
@FrazzledMama, thank you also for a reasonable reply (take notes Cali). No one is judging you individually here, it's just a striking 'can't see the forest for the trees' feeling inside this thread! I think there's way too much emphasis on blame! Vilification! So many point the finger labeling someone a narcissist but THEY actually sound the one who is narcissistic. Fine line there!
@Shell38314 actually I was out the door at 14, does cleaning up mother's chit on the bathroom floor because she was always so drunk she couldn't make it give me bonus points in the abused victim scale?
@golden23 Not interested in comparing child war wounds!
@MaryKathleen ? First woman producer/production company (Desilu)in Hollywood, also produced the series Mission Impossible and Star Trek! Pretty Rockin'!
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Heather: Totally agree with your statements. Turns out my uncle's wife was no better than him as she knew the abuse was happening & didn't have him arrested. SMH.
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CantDance: I am so sorry that you had to go through the trauma of abuse. Big Hugs to you ((( ))). My uncle was allowed to abuse many-including his own granddaughter.
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Heather and CantDance: I have no idea (other than the fact that my mother was abused by her own sister's husband) why she was not my protector when I was abused by an uncle. Good grief! She kept corresponding with the man until his death in 2009! She said 501X---why didn't you tell me (he did that)? I said--mother I told you! The man was a pedophile.
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Addressing the original question, I can think of several factors.

1) people with "normal" mothers do not end up asking for help on a website like this one as often as people who have difficult mothers do. I think it is a big factor.

2) Mental illnesses like personality disorders were not recognized nor treated in the past, I remember a doctor coming to our house when mother was about 40, She screamed and yelled and raged at him and told him to get out. As I showed him to the door, he said, "I am afraid you are in for a very rough time.", There was no diagnosis nor treatment - no resources.

3) No one talked about it. They may have whispered, but in general families kept their secrets. People knew that Aunt Hetta, or Mrs White down the street, were different, and difficult to get along with, but no one looked into it further.

To look down the generations, the ones with personality disorders used to be labelled as eccentrics. The ones of my generation, that I know of, were "difficult people" maybe vaguely termed sociopathic or narcissistic. In my dd's generation and beyond, for the first time I see actual diagnoses and treatment, though there is no silver bullet.

Of course I am speaking of a very small sample, but I do see this pattern in some that post here.

I once read of a person who had cared for an Alz patient who was normal before they got it, who had also cared for a person with a personality disorder. Hands down they would care for an Alz patient any day before the one with then personality disorder.

Those of us caring for aging and sometimes demented, personality disordered, parents have few good memories to go on and are likely suffering from childhood emotional neglect if not abuse. Children need more than to be fed and have their bum wiped. They need to be nurtured.Those whose parents gave them a normal upbringing bring the great advantage of having been loved and nurtured by their parent into the care giving arena. It makes a huge difference.
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twinkie Jan 2019
And 'who' says what this 'normal' upbringing is? I just don't agree with so much in this overall thread. If I outlined my childhood there is nowhere a person would say "ohhhhh, but you don't understand, couldn't understand, what weeeee've been through because you had a NORMAL childhood." What's normal?? What's nurturing? I'm just not buying this. Nothing personal against your post here Golden, but it is precisely my LOVE for people, including you all here, that makes me want to say HEY, stop, rethink the angle you are taking and let it go. It is inconceivable for me to hold on to things my father (long passed) did to me, or my mother (am her caregiver). I have such compassion and understanding for them! Do any of us have a perfectly easy time in life? Of course not. Why would I hold the so-called 'sins' of my father or mother over my head and heart (and theirs), when they struggled in their own lives with their own parents and struggled as parents themselves with me and my siblings? I simply don't see this as a "wellllll, top THIS story". I'm really trying to find the common ground here in this thread; oh I have stories that could make toes curl but IT'S THE PAST! It has no power to hurt me! I have long forgiven and let go of what does no one any good to carry around. If my mother is surly and shows her wicked side, it has no power to hurt me nor stirs up any 'memory' that I can't handle. Someone replied back to my original post if I were a "Troll". No! I guess I thought everyone handled their troubled emotions from childhood, got them in the proper perspective, released them, and were on the agingCare boards because of day to day venting or sharing of useful products. Did mom put me through some bad things as a child, teenager and beyond? Yup. Some of them very hurtful? Of course! Do I carry those around til this day? HECK no! I just take a deep breath and understand where SHE ENDS, and I BEGIN! Even when it's the slowest like-pulling-teeth day where she's balking like a mule and snarly. Am trying to give y'all some food for thought! DON'T HAND OVER YOUR HEAD AND YOUR POWER! Neither to the PAST and neither to the PRESENT!
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Am new here reading various threads; this thread bothers me. I read it yesterday and again today, trying to make sense and be sure of what I was reading. Perhaps I am just particularly blessed with a good mother, but something seems very off to be blaming these 'awful women' and trying to put the blame on 'society' WWII era upbringing, evil men patriarchy etc., for their "shrewish" behavior. I'm sorry, but pretty much every post on here comes off sounding entitled, spoiled, ungrateful, rude, know-it-all awful, which is why I had to come back and read this thread twice! Did you ever think the problem might not be 'her', but YOU??

So many women on here are looking back trying to make sense of why they're 'stuck with the nasty shrew from the nasty era', but they are still looking through eyes completely tainted by their own modernity and mindset. You can't speak as to what it was like to live back then because YOU didn't live during the time of your mil/lo nor were you raised during that time, hence, you'll never be able to understand how it was through their eyes and skin. YOU don't accept certain behaviors and situations today in society but you're looking at this topic like ALL women, ALL the time back in the day, were just bristling with yearning for what is available for women TODAY; is the accepted and the norm today. It doesn't work like that. Most of you seem to think these women were absolutely hating their lives, stuck, angry, miserable, simply because YOU would feel that way if you had to go back in time to this imagined 'he ll'. Similar to how Westerner's judge other cultures using their Western yardstick and mindset - they never crack the code to true understanding because their eyes are completely blinded by their 'ethnocentric lens' bias and ignorance, they remain the Ugly American and wonder why they are called arrogant and ignorant. Kind of like the current craziness in post feminism to vilify Lucille Ball and sneer that 'she was no role model' and toss her onto the rubbish heap of the past as an embarrassment to all women. No. Lucille Ball was rocking it in HER day and absolutely a strong role model for women during that time.

Am not saying I don't believe that any of you don't have legitimate gripes about whoever you are caregiving, but I find it surprising that so many of you seem to absolutely VILIFY these women as if they are the source of all of your problems. I would be interested to know how many of you were raised by 'city' women versus 'country' and how many raised with a belief in God, as that might have a wee bit to do with it.

As much as my mother tests my patience and makes me want to pound my head against a wall at times, she gave birth to me, she gave me LIFE, and life is precious. Do none of you feel joy? Aren't you THANKFUL for your LIFE? She gave you that. She also wiped your bottom time after time, when she probably had no desire whatsoever to lift your legs in the air, dive right in with her hands and a rag and clean out that mess. Think about it. No, am not guilt tripping you, am just speaking a reality. If your mother diapered you, wiped your butt, fed you, made sure you were clothed warmly, rocked you to sleep when SHE needed sleep, combed brushed your hair, made sure you brushed teeth, took you to the dentist and doctor when you needed it, made sure you went to school etc, what exactly is the payback here that you don't understand? I don't care how 'narcissistic' someone is, if they loved you enough that you survived to this point than count yourself blessed. Sorry if this puts me at odds with many people here but this thread sounds like a lot of whining without enough proper perspective, gratitude and not much spiritual upbringing. My mother is who she is. She gave me life, also suffered caring for ME. I RESPECT HER. I can never repay her enough for that, doesn't make me a doormat, Maybe try giving your mil/lo some honest acceptance/love without the know it all disdain.
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50sChild Jan 2019
I am very glad that you have worked out your relationship with your god and with your mother. Please understand for others, it may take a little longer or they may die trying to understand. Are you a troll or are you seriously joining this discussion? You hit my button big time.

Many on this thread are trying to understand "mental illness" of their loved one. Or catastrophic cultural changes. Or family dynamics. If you reject that introspection, analysis, sharing, comparisons, hypotheses, seeking help and understanding are one of the right things to do, then you should seek another thread.

Your belittling of people who have experienced abuse or don't know if they have, shows very little understanding or tolerance of the dynamics. By your arguments, mothers should be honored and obeyed 100% and we should alter our god-given perceptions to better honor your god. Is this the same god that gave us brains? If that god gave us life, doesn't our life matter as well?  Not all of us want to dishonor or hurt our mothers. My guess is that many of us are struggling, til our death and for our sanity, to love our mothers in spite of their and our own afflictions.
Your post particularly hurt because your words eerily reflected my mother when she was at her worst, inside my brain, controlling my soul, threatening my life. My poor mother was so traumatized in her own childhood that during breakdowns she goaded her children to kill themselves. My brother did. We kids lived with brother's threats, his planted bombs and weapons, and his escalating in-home shooting. Can you imagine what pain went on in my brother's desperate attempt to live and defend himself while honoring mother?  When my Mom was good, she was great! When she was breaking down we all felt our lives were about to end -- how cruel can you be to say that I should have not reacted as though she was toxic? Or that I should not derive emotional calming and read rational discussion from people who have experienced trauma? Or that we as a human race should not try to articulate better ways of coping than derision and gaslighting?
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I see in this thread a lot about how women's lives and identities were made "of less importance", even in the 20th century. I do a little genealogy research and have also found obituaries where the deceased women was never referred to as anything but "Mrs. His Name". No first name given for the woman, and no maiden name either. Nothing about her own family, or her life before marriage. That was an era where a woman was considered incomplete or odd if she was not married. And it seemed to get worse, not better, in the years after WWII. The "fabulous fifties" are a myth. As I noted in an earlier post, if I'd been an adult in that mess of an era, I'd be angry and bitter too.
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IDK on my way to SC to take care of my mom, which sounds like your story. Mom is mean lies and is in total denial. 😪🙄. It's hard enough with out all this.
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CantDance: I did get your private message. Thank you for that. I finally figured out why my mother still kept in tough with her BIL, my uncle who abused me. She herself was abused by a different BIL, the man who was married to her own sister! She just swept it under the rug, like a lot of people do.
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Heather10 Dec 2018
If a spouse was abusive, society would tell the abused spouse to walk away.

If they would not walk away, they would be encouraged to get them treatment for being co-dependent on their abuser.

A lot of people rug-sweep parental abuse.

Yes. A lot of people put up with parental abuse rather than walking away.

No one should enable an abuser by sticking around to accept their abuse.

IMO, if everyone was sanctioned to walk away from a parental abuser, the parents would not be enable to continue to abuse their offspring.
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So hard to decipher other people's lives & motives. We can only see their deeds & hear their words. But I will never know how my mother became so bitter & cold. I only know that it's not safe for me to be around her. I knew that from an early age. But I still respect & worship the very God Who made her my mother. He is unimpeachable.
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"difficult mom" noun. a person who has given birth to a good daughter and continues for decades to be source of angst. Example: Good daughter was tired of standing on kitchen floor to prepare meals and splurged on new gelmat. Difficult mom persists in moving it and when told to LEAVE IT ALONE, in spite of dementia, she is VERY quick to respond "it's MY house!"
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CantDance Dec 2018
My mom (with dementia) is also territorial to the extreme, which I suppose is why she refused to go live with her kids. She knew she couldn't be Queen Bee of the house when it was someone else's house.
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I guess I had a Mother born in '32 and had all of us kids in the '50s. Our Mom was June Cleaver/Harriet Nelson all wrapped up in 1, especially the Harriet Nelson as the house furnishing have been the same....all maple wood...still there today.
Any way, our Mom was very confident, she grew up fast due to her Mother being a weekend alcoholic and a very quick tempered Father. She raised herself and her 2 brothers. She always told us we could be whatever we wanted, but we had to work on it ourselves because your future isn't given to you unless you just don't care.
When my brother started kindergarten, she went back to work so we are also the era of the 1st latch key kids.
Mom finished high school, married, children as expected. What we didn't know was how smart she was. She also had many childhood friends who grew up to become very important people. I met the granddaughter of 1 of those friends of all places a Love's truck stop ladies room. Her grandfather was Senator Barry Goldwater. It was like old home week there in the middle of Love's!
When Mom went back to work she was a clerk in the bank Commercial Credit Lending dept. These were very BIG COMPANIES she had to research financially etc. My Mom ended up being the Bank Officer of Operations over this department. Although I wanted to be a teacher, my Father refused to help me financially to get there, but Mom put me on my path in banking. I started as a clerk typist and when I left, I was the Banking Officer of Operations for our Foreign Exchange dept.
Although I always had my mind set to be a History teacher, Mom showed me want I needed to do to get somewhere in a career I never wanted, but I was happy to go to work everyday.
My Mom helped me to become her child who now takes care of her in many ways no one ever thinks they will need. She taught me how to research, get the answers, be positive and back my research i.e. attorneys now. The best lesson learned, how to follow the money which my step-sister never really accepted I could prove she committed fraud in so many ways.
My Mom was the greatest influence in my life. We didn't get along all of the time, puberty does that to all of us, but she knew she could count on me when she needed someone in her darkest hours. I can't think of the hours becoming any darker than slowly watching this woman fade away.
My sister text me about how Mom thinks she placed her in this facility and won't talk to her. Truthfully, she did and I think she feels the guilt because I took Mom out of a ghastly situation and now she is being waited on hand/foot, medical treatment monthly, hairdresser, proper diet for her diabetes etc. I told her to feel blessed that we all have Mom with us for now and go with that and accept the disease as it is and see the good, not the bad right now.
Yes, far too many grew up with "horrible" Mothers/Fathers, but if you still have them, feel lucky that you do.
Merry Christmas
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anonymous828521 Dec 2018
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Struggling1 here is what I think.

If you were born in the 50's, 60's, or the 70's our mothers lived through the aftermath of the great depression, WWII, the 50's where women were expected to marry and have children, and the 60's where the women broke out of their homemaker role, not sure what happened in the 70's except they became selfish. In my case!

My final thought, our mothers grew up with no one believing in them and them not believing in themselves, therefore, they couldn't believe in us, so in turn, causing low expectations, low self-esteem, and low self worth.

Just my 2 cents!
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Deanna16 Dec 2018
I agree Shell38314 with your comments. My mom doesn't have self esteem . She did grow up in the depression & her mom made her drop out of school when she was 14 to help "her". Maybe that is why my mom is so demanding & can get mean. (no low expectations from her believe me lol)
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I look after my parents but they didn't like me as I grew up. My mom said on many occasions she only wanted 1 child, I am number 2. My older brother that visits them twice a year is a god and I can do nothing right. I cook, clean, and help them stay in their house. They say thanks now but they fight me all the time. I try to change the bed, do laundry, cook or get them to dentists and they don't want to go or get clean. The doctor is no help. I have stopped caring as much, just making sure they are ok then leave them to their own devices. they are 87 and stubborn. Their doctor says they won't change. My mom has fallen and my dad doesn't take her to doctor or hospital, He still drives so I can leave them alone about a week. My mom can't cook anymore and my dad says its not his job.
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Isthisrealyreal Dec 2018
It's not your job either.

Take care of you and let them live the consequences of their choices. Being stubborn is only acceptable when you aren't requiring help. People believe they are living at home and nothing has changed, I bet you don't believe that one.

If they can afford it, hire a home chef to come in weekly to prepare meals, if they can't get them set up with meals on wheels.

Being unkind and ungrateful to your caregiver only works when you pay that person to do what they do.
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My mom was always working and too busy to actually spend time with us. She was divorced 4 times, married 5 so that took a lot of her time and effort. She was critical of many of my choices. But I always knew she loved me and that she was there if I needed her. I guess I was a lucky one. I was able to be there for her to the end. And as her Alzheimer's progressed, she actually became less critical...maybe more grumpy, but definitely less critical. My kids say can they are happy their children remember a kinder grandma.
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anonymous828521 Dec 2018
That's great that you can have some good memories of her.✌
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Scrolling through this thread about "difficult" mothers, I'm wondering if it was in part due to the era many of them grew up in. Watching WWII in progress, maybe even serving in the military or working in factories because the men were away fighting. Then after the war, it seemed like there was a lot of sneaky pressure on women to quit jobs, marry, stay home, and have kids ... even if some women at that time would've preferred to remain single, or build airplanes, or go to college, or start their own business, or whatever. What was right for some (marriage, family) wasn't necessarily so for ALL women. Feeling trapped, limited, and belittled by the expectations of society - that would make me angry and bitter too.
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golden23 Jan 2019
I was born in '37 and was a young adult in the '50s. I never felt trapped or belittled nor did my friends most of whom accomplished their goals in life. Even mother who was born is 1912 accomplished many things in her life and she certainly wasn't trapped but she did have a mental illness -Borderline Personality Disorder. Despite that she accomplished a lot, though she certainly is part of the group of difficult mothers. I can't attribute, what amounts to illness and personal choice to an era. Her contemporaries were not like her at all.
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I have one too...
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Struggling1,

Was your mom an alcoholic? Mine was a Narcissist and a drunk. She beat and emotionally abused me until she was to demented to carry on.

My sister is also a Narcissist, but with different characteristics. I didn’t realize my mom was one until I was reading about how to deal with my sister.

Now I know why they fought like they did. They BOTH knew everything, never accountable for what they destroyed or for their actions. And they were ALWAYS RIGHT... even if you could prove them wrong.

I am Bi Polar. The PERFECT TARGET for the Narcissist. I was the weak one and they could break me down in an instant. And they did.

After around 30 or 35 YEARS of therapy, I get it. I can’t do anything about it. They will never seek help or admit faults. They take credit when it isn’t due, they are perfect...

Mom is gone. When her estate is closed, I have decided to walk away from my sister. If she weren’t family, I would have never chosen her for a friend or to be in my life.

Just curious, did both your parents drink? Were they physically abusive to each other? To you and your siblings?My dad drank too but wasn’t physically or emotionally abusive. He defended himself from her attacks. My sister was the first born. She saw more than I did. But like you said, a lot of us suffered through childhood with Narcissism.

I wonder if there is a connection with Narcissism and Dementia. There sure are a lot of posts from adult children regarding both issues and mostly with moms.

I will ask my therapist. Maybe we can shed some light on it.
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AT1234 Dec 2018
Your post strikes me because my sister was bipolar. She commited suicide and had been living close to our narc mom for last years. My mom had smeared her to anyone who would listen in their small town.
In your case, walk away from your narc sister. I wonder if my sister saw me that way? It was always us against the world my narc mom was busy taking care of herself.
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I already responded to this thread, but have something to add. As I read the things people have shared here; things their mothers said to them, I nearly go blind with outrage. I can so understand the pain. May I add a couple of my own? I was told by my mom:

1. "You were an accident."
2. "You were a lot of trouble to raise, and I had no help."
3. "Men aren't attracted to you."
4. "You had no business having children."

About 20 years ago, I overheard Mom tell her friend I was (her) competition for Dad's affection. She ridiculed me and my choice of friends, diminished my accomplishments, and when she wasn't ridiculing my boyfriends she was flirting with them.

I didn't "get it" as a teenager, but now I do. Mom was threatened by me and especially jealous of the mutual affection I shared with my dad. Had it not been for my dad, I wouldn't have known what love is. I wish as a teenager I'd understood this; that the problem wasn't with me but the woman who gave birth to me. She had to tear me down to feel better about herself.

The fallout was pretty bad. I thought I was worthless. Ugly. Stupid. A social nitwit. So I spent my life making poor choices because I thought I didn't deserve any better, engaged in self-sabotage, turned my anger in on myself: a perfect recipe for chronic depression and anxiety. I will own my poor choices. I made a bunch of 'em. But I 'll always wonder how different life would have been if I'd believed in myself, or thought myself worthy of love rather than contempt and abuse.

People aren't perfect. Parents make mistakes. I get that. Still, I wish I'd had a mother who didn't resent me, who didn't emotionally abuse me and try to destroy my relationships with others. You know, a mother who actually loved and raised me, instead of leaving me to myself to raise. Every Mother's Day is hell.

So I just want to say, I truly don't know what circumstances mold women into creatures who can't love their daughters.
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Llamalover47 Dec 2018
Dear CantDance: I wanted to post to you---YOU ARE LOVED! YOU MATTER! PEOPLE CARE FOR YOU! MORE IMPORTANTLY, GOD LOVES YOU!
Llamalover47
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I'm curious: what standards of motherhood and personal qualities are we measuring these ladies against, and when were those standards more prevalent?
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AT1234 Dec 2018
Standards? The human dignity kind.
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My mother was born in 1909 in the Ozark Mountains. My grandmother was a mean, abusive, alcoholic. In Mom's culture girls were not valued. She had to quit school after the 8th grade so her brother could finish school. She carried that prejudice on to me.

I think she also was jealous because my dad loved me. That was my Aunt's take on it anyway. As mom told me once, she never cared about me. She didn't care if I needed anything. She just didn't care. By the way, she would tell me that she only took care of me until my dad got home from work, then he took care of me. My little brother was the golden child. He was a boy and the baby.

I was raised to believe I had no rights. After a lot of therapy, I asked her about it. She said she was trying to teach me that so I could survive. I guess that showed her raising.

As an adult, I was a mess. I wasn't a good mother. What haunted me then and still does to this day is, I knew I wasn't a good mother but I didn't know what to do about it. I would have committed suicide but I knew my children would go to my mother and I couldn't let that happen. This was in the 1960s - 1970's when therapy wasn't as accepted as it is now. I had PMS very bad, again not recognized then, I had to fight suicide every month. I also belonged to a church that did not believe in therapy. Finally, in 1982. I got brave, told my daughters I wanted to break the chain of abuse. I started the long journey, took over 6 years and 3 therapists. I still struggle with my feelings of worthlessness. Since I am 84 I guess I will to my grave.

It is hard when from babyhood you are told you are ugly, "You can't help being ugly but you don't have to have your picture taken". "Your skin has too large of pores, everyone looking at you knows you are just white trash and will never amount to anything". "You are ugly and will just have to develop a good personality". Everything I tried to do was met with "That is OK, but ........."

I did take care of her until her death. I promised my dad I would because my brother wouldn't have anything to do with her. However, I couldn't stand for her to touch me. After therapy, I finally could touch her once in a while, but I never could stand for her to touch me. It is a good thing she could take care of her own physical needs, because I would never have been able to touch her to do it.
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FrazzledMama Dec 2018
Hugs, MaryKathleen. You are a beautiful lady, I can tell from your picture on here! I'm sorry you went through those things, and I can relate to a lot of what you mentioned.

My mom didn't outright tell me that she didn't care about my needs or feelings, but her actions showed it. My grandmother treated her much the same as your grandmother treated hers (disliked because she was the only girl, and girls were not valued). It was a cycle of dysfunction passed on from my grandmother to my mom, and then to my sister and I. Mom endured a lot and ended up personality disordered with a lot of narcissistic tendencies. Then I too struggled with being a mom to my oldest kids, and made a lot of mistakes. I realized how I too was dysfunctional and a mess and sought therapy to learn how to be a better mom and break those patterns. Still a work in progress.

I believe when we don't have a frame of reference for what is healthy, we just muddle through and we get a lot of things wrong, but once we're able to finally break free and start learning healthier habits and ways of relating, our past can both make us stronger and help others.

I try to give my mom grace too (sometimes easier said than done, but I try) and remember that she's dealt with a lot herself that she's never gotten help for. That still doesn't keep me from wanting to pull my hair out when I'm with her a lot of the time though!
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There used to be a woman who could bake 9 pies in a day without breaking a sweat.
That woman was my mother. That woman is gradually, slowly becoming me. There was a time when our younger parents had no pain. Does anyone really want to age? Sure, teens do, but then reach age 40 & want to reverse the aging clock. This lady " what the heck happened?"-she aged.
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CantDance Dec 2018
Thanks, Llamalover47. I sent you a private message.
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