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Recently I was visiting my father in assisted living and I, my sister-in-law and son of an assistant living resident were taking about assisted living insurance. My sister-in-law and the son were telling me that I definitely needed to get this ASAP for myself. "Look at your father. You definitely need it". I just nodded but what I really wanted to say is, "First of all stay out of my personal business. Second what you idiots don't understand is that only a very few actually come out ahead with insurance." That was common sense to me but when I got home I did some research. This may not be accurate at all but it seems fairly right to me: In the US about 50% or so of people will need assisted living when they are between 75 and 95 years old. However, the average stay is about 2 years! Only 1 out of 10 will stay longer than 4 years. Most people in assisted living are women, obviously women live longer. So what this means is that if a person pays for 20 or 30 years of insurance on average they pay more in premiums than they will ever get back. The 1 in 10 will come out way ahead BUT that is if you are 1 in 10! If you are a man the chances you will need assisted living is low because, sorry to say, by the time you would have needed it you won't make it to that age. Does anyone else agree with this assessment?

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Lisa, I suspect that your SIL's thinking about your needing LTCi is probably influenced by the fact that you don't have a spouse or children to be potential caregivers in your old age.

What if you had replied "I've thought about insuring for that risk, but I've decided to self-insure"?

All insurance is a gamble. I don't buy auto/home/umbrella insurance to "come out ahead". I buy it both for peace of mind and because there are some hazards and black swan events you can't self-insure for.

Some folks buy LTCi to protect their assets for their heirs. It's a nuanced discussion, not right/wrong.

Like MD said previously, I think you would benefit from working with a therapist. Your concern about always being "right" is, well, concerning.
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NeedHelpWithMom Jul 2023
So very true about it is concerning if a person ‘has to be right’ on every topic! Something is off when that happens, perhaps a lack of humility or inflated ego, something…

Why does everything have to be a freaking competition with certain people? What does it really matter? No one on this earth is correct all of the time!

I admire people who know their limitations and send me to a specialist, rather than pretending to know what to do! I respect those who simply say, ‘I am not sure or I don’t know.’ Both of these statements are valid answers. I truly appreciate when someone says, ‘Hey, I screwed up!’ We have all screwed up at one time or another.

Plus, there isn’t a ‘one size fits all’ approach for every situation in life.
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Lisa,

Can I ask what your "career" is if you have one, and why you think you're too smart for it?

I remember your past posts and I'm sure the regulars on this forum do too. You've never been responsible for yourself so you would not have a need to purchase long-term care insurance which is also very expensive.

Based on your past posts I believe your age to be late 20's or early 30's if I'm remembering correctly. People this age don't start paying for LTC insurance.

Ventingisback is right. All of your posts are about how much smarter, better, and morally superior you are to others. No one here is believing any of that. I don't see how you'd believe it yourself.
Your past posts are so outlandish that if you were just a forum member reading them, you wouldn't believe them either.
You aren't a caregiver anymore since you say your father is now in AL. So there's no need to continue singing your own praises about how much you have to do for him. You've stated many times that you do not get on well with your brother and SIL either.
You don't have to have anything to do with of them anymore now that your father is settled in his AL.

So, you can get on with your own life now and I hope you find a measure of happiness for yourself. Let me give you a bit of practical advice. I give it in the spirit of friendship and with respect to you. Please try therapy and maybe start working with a social worker or life coach. Also, your life will be a lot happier if you stop trying to correct people so much and stop behaving like you are everyone's superior because you are not. `BC

PS. You don't need to respond to this post or start refuting every point. Just think about what I'm saying here as a friend.
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lisatrevor Jul 2023
I have a career. I'm too smart for it because I get accurate results and the people I work with constantly make mistakes that I have to clean up.

"Never been responsible for yourself". You don't eve know me. For many years I took care of not just myself but my father, too.

The reason I'm not buying LTC insurance now is because in my particular situation I don't need it. If things change in the future maybe I will starting paying for it.

I don't think I'm better than anyone. However if you define "better" by being "more" I'm certainly better than a lot of people that I know and know like my inconsiderate neighbor who blasts music at 2 am. In that respect for example I am a "better" neighbor than them as I would never do that. I think you would agree if you lived next door.
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It’s true insurance is always a gamble. The only member of my parent’s generation who had it died suddenly and didn’t use it. I have no spouse or kids and don’t want to be a burden to nieces and nephews, so I have it. The problem is you need enough people to enroll to spread the cost and enough regulation that providers don’t profiteer. I would prefer that we had enough of a social safety net that the burden was not put on individuals to prepare, but that is not the direction our country has gone. We are a savage, everyone for himself, society.
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www.bogleheads.org.

It's a good financial advice site to determine if you can self insure for long term care.

Anyone who talks about "assisted living insurance" is not paying attention. It's LTC insurance that will pay, flexibly, for in-home care, Al, Memory Care and SNF as needed.

This not about saying your SIL is wrong. You need to do your own research and she (as part of a couple with potential heirs) needs to do hers.
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lisatrevor Jul 2023
Right. It depends on the individuals circumstances. Those two were saying that everyone should get it. That's the myth. What really is wrong is that they were trying to force it on me through social pressure of a majority, i.e. two against one, they must be right.
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Don’t call other people idiots. All your posts are about how you are better.

No, you’re not right about insurance. Sometimes it makes financial sense to do it, sometimes not. It depends.
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lisatrevor Jul 2023
People who get into other people's business and talk about things they have little understanding about are idiots. I would never do that. You could say in that respect I am superior. That's a good thing.
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Lisa,
Interesting and complex subject you bring up. Wish you had loaded it into discussions.

Every person must make up his or her own mind. For me the ideal is sort of what I call the "Dave Ramsey model" which would be to work all your life using good ideas to stay out of debt and build wealth so that you are in the latter years "self insured". Read that as meaning you have enough money to pay for AL or MC or staying home with home help in some way until your death.

Along came LTC insurance. I would say from what I know, that along with Reverse Mortgages, it is wise to read every single sentence in LTC policies. They are very expensive. And as you near the time when you will be using them they are MORE expensive. Some make one enough money when needed to get SOME Care, but not enough while the monthly payout is too much for them to qualify for other programs such as Medicaid. What, for instance, do you do when you have 2,500 from SS and 2,000 from LTC and the cost of your facility is 6,500.00 a month and going up?

Some LTC insurance companies are "tricky" for want of a better word. There are some that won't pay out for LTC facilities unless an RN is on duty at the facility 24/7. THAT doesn't happen. EVER, for the most part.

So........ in short, each person must become as well educated as possible and that is a life-long task we don't often take seriously until it is too late.

Again, interesting subject. I like seeing you out on Forum answering questions, as well.
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notgoodenough Jul 2023
For myself, whose monthly income will always exceed the Medicaid maximum but will likely not cover the entire cost of AL/NH, I consider my policy to be "gap" coverage. Our financial advisor was very clear on this - my policy will not cover the entire cost, but between the policy AND my income, I should easily have enough to cover any costs. Which is really all I can ask for.

My husband did not qualify because of his CIDP; so (again, upon the advice of our FA) we will convert his term life insurance policy to a whole life policy, with the hopes of being able to recoup some of the costs should he need to go into institutionalized care.

Our advisor did this to protect the majority of our assets, especially should one of us need to go into care while the other doesn't.
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Lisa, sometimes the "other room" is a different industry.

I am a retired Psychologist. All of the folks in my family of origin think I'm nuts.

I'm not. I simply see through a different lens. Having teachers, colleagues and friends who see through that lens keeps me centered.
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lisatrevor Jul 2023
I was going to say that. I can see that maybe while my career has been a decent fit for me for many years, I believe it is probably not nearly the best fit and there's probably one where I would not only excel at but get far more satisfaction from.

I spoke with a someone in a top position of a major corporation recently. Their perspective was totally different than my colleagues and proved that what I thought was happening was right. They also said something that I disagreed with and I was proven right shortly after.
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Lisa,

You handled the situation well by simply nodding. Just because a topic is raised doesn’t mean that you have to engage in a discussion about it.

Allow your sister in law to feel however she feels, regardless of whether you feel that she is right or wrong. She’s entitled to her opinion and you’re entitled to yours.

Honestly, who cares what she thinks of you? Live your own life as you see fit. Don’t place a whole lot of merit on her opinion.

You already know that you, your brother and your sister in law are like oil and water.

Find people that you gel with to have meaningful conversations with and continue to nod and not fret about what they say to you. I bet they don’t fret over what you say to them.
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In some states, Lisa, retirement assets (401k, 403b, 457) are protected from Medicaid spend downs/liens; in others, there are Miller/pooled income trusts.

There will always be folks who are less sophisticated consumers of financial advice than you are.

Best advice I ever got? "If you are the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room."

The corollary is, if the "room" you are in is your family, smile and nod and find yourself a group of smart friends/colleagues/neighbors/congregants.
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lisatrevor Jul 2023
Thank you. In my family's case, my sister-in-law has many years experience in financial planning; she inherited a lot of money quite young. It perplexes me why she would try to push something on me that is obviously so highly individual (and none of her business). I guess some people want to control others for their own good? Sort of like some of my neighbors did when I was in my teens.

In my career I am now finding out I am definitely in the wrong room. The problem is I am too "smart" for the room I am in but I think not smart enough for the room above, which is like the top executives!

Thank you again. At least I feel like I'm not losing my mind.
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My mom and aunt did better with stocks and mutual funds. They had a modest inheritance and set up an irrevocable trust that they mostly sat on. For the 22 years that they waited, it covered a shared independent living for 3 years followed by 5 years of MC for the other. Their advisor helped them diversify stable companies. My mom lived mostly on the dividends and would have had another 5 years or so before maxed out.
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