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We just got guardianship of my mother in law. It's been a long and frustrating process. She currently lives with a "friend" about an hour away. He told me today that she is out of cigarettes and since I'm her guardian, I need to be the one purchasing more. She shouldn't be smoking. Not only because it's bad for her, but because her dementia makes her smoking dangerous. I just ignored the request for cigarettes at the moment, but I know I will have to confront him about it eventually. Am I "in the right" to tell him that I will not purchase her cigarettes, legally speaking? Our end goal is to get her into a living facility, but that could take a while. We can't afford one for her and we don't think she can afford one on her disability. Until then, I am a little nervous that he will accuse us of neglect.

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I guess I am confused as to which money we are talking about. I understand the DIL is a guardian, and as such, if the MIL has funds which the DIL is managing, and there is enough money available. I dont have a problem with DIL using that money for cigs.

But the way I understood the question, the DIL wanted to know if she should use her OWN money (not the MIL money she manages) to buy cigs. If that is the case, no way. But perhaps I understood the question incorrectly.

Does anyone really think the DIL should use her OWN money, not the money she manages, but her OWN money, to buy cigs for MIL?
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It would probably be bad for her to quit cold turkey.
She smokes and it should be her choice. But the purchase of the cigarettes should come from her disability checks.
You are going to be placing her in a home and they will probably allow her to smoke outside.
So, even tho you don't smoke and smoking isn't good for her, I would say if you're managing her money and she can afford cigarettes with her disability checks then she should be allowed to continue to smoke.
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Imho, do not enable her addiction to nicotine.
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While it wasn't clarified in the original posting, OP did provide more information in a comment.

For those newly coming here, the issue is not whether or not to ban smoking, but whether OP would get in trouble if she refuses to spend HER OWN money to buy butts for her MIL. The answer to that should be no, she isn't required, as guardian, to spend her own money on MIL's needs. She is to oversee MIL's income and bills. It would be best to get her off the butts, however that isn't likely to happen in the current living arrangement.

We also don't have any knowledge on how much income MIL has (if profile is MIL, not mother, she is rather young AND on disability, which means her income would likely be very limited.) We also don't know how OP is using any funds MIL gets. Since MIL is currently living with a "friend", we can only assume her small income is being paid to this "friend" for housing, care and food.

Also noted in that comment, MIL had been weaned OFF of butts and was subsidized and enabled by this "friend" to return to smoking, so he'd have a smoking buddy. Either he manages the funds provided for her housing, food and care, and buys them, or he continues to subsidize and enable IMO. She didn't NEED them until he got her back on them. OP should NOT be spending her own money on buying butts for MIL and he should not be demanding that she do so.
(NOTE: non-family guardians, 3rd party, can be appointed by judges. THEY would not be using their own money to subsidize a client. The same would apply to ANYONE who is guardian, family or not. Same with POA - it enables you to manage finances and medical, but does NOT require you to spend your own money on the person nor does it require you to take the person into your home! People can appoint anyone, sometimes their atty - you think that atty is going to pay the person's way or take them in? Not happening!)

This living arrangement was to continue until they can get her in a facility, which could take a while. It would be best to find another place, where there are no smokers, and get her off the butts ASAP, because if she needs MC or NH, she will have to stop smoking anyway.
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I had a husband who smoked and we fought constantly. I know it was killing him but he kept smoking. When he was dying of pancreatic cancer, he wanted to smoke. No matter what he said or did, I did NOT give him cigarettes. I would have felt horrible - that I was adding to the suffering. I could not and would not do it. My advice is if it is causing harm that you do NOT, no matter what, provide any means of smoking. Don't do it.
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TWO THINGS: One, he is trying to manipulate you by telling you he will not buy them for her. He wants you to send MONEY, not cigarettes. Where is her money going? The social security or other funds she receives? You could give them a set amount to help with her expenses, and make sure you say exactly what it is for. Rent/food/personal supplies. Document it. IF they choose to use it for cigarettes, that is their right, and it might help her get into a medicaid funded nursing home more quickly.
The second thing. My mom lived with us the last 3 years of her life. She was a smoker, and an alcoholic. We said NO SMOKING AT ALL in our house--she could go outside to the patio to smoke if she wanted to. BUT we did forbid drinking. She was homeless due to her alcoholism, and injury from when she fell down the stairs, and her debts she had racked up. She tried to apply for disability, but couldn't jump through the right hoops until she was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer. When my son was born 3 months before she was diagnosed, I told her she had to really limit the smoking and couldn't smoke and then go pick him up--she'd have to wash her hands and mouth because I didn't want nicotine kisses on my baby. I was young and insensitive. I regret it now. I could have handled it much better. In fact, I wish I hadn't tried to limit her even, and let her make adult decisions. I was trying to help her, but I know it wounded her. Addictions are HARD. As I'm now 57, and have struggled with weight all my life, due to my food addictions, I have realized it is the same demons.....just different ways to express them. Have some grace. Obviously you shouldn't use your money--but don't try "saving her money" to get her into AL.....Just let her spend her money for her care and keeping and apply for medicaid.
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BurntCaregiver May 2021
DILKimba,

Her money should be going to whoever is providing her caregiving. The 'friend' is the one who keeps the lights and heat on, a roof over her head, food on the table, and meets her care needs.
Sure, there can be an itemized list made up of what the money is supposed to be used for (rent, food, personal supplies, etc...) but is the caregiving supposed to be free?
No. It's not supposed to be.
This 'friend' is really doing Alazrielle a solid being her mother's caregiver. It's keeping the burden of it off of her and that's certainly worth compensating someone for.
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Thought I would read comments first and frankly I am absolutely amazed by some of the answers.

Sure the MIL has the "right" to smoke. It does not mean the SIL should pay for the cigarettes. Sounds like the family already cannot afford a senior living situation, so probably dont have a lot of money around for cigs.

The DIL has no obligation to the MIL or he living companion to buy cigs. If it was me I would say no.

I know there are comments about not knowing what its like to have an addiction. That does not mean DIL, out of her own finances, should buy cigs.
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BurntCaregiver May 2021
Karsten,

The DIL was awarded guardianship over her MIL which means she also controls her finances.
The MIL is a lifelong smoker and her cigarettes are supposed to be paid for out of her money. It's up to her guardians to make sure it is.
Also, a smoking habit doesn't cost per month what an assisted living facility does.
No smoker ever had a monthly cigarette bill running to $5,000 or $6,000 or $7,000 a month. Assisted living costs or nursing homes cost this much and more.
The 'friend' taking care of the mother is really doing the guardians of her a favor because they don't have to do it themselves. They should just get the cigarettes and leave well enough alone.
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Just wanted to add...if she is living with a smoker, it will be very stressful to stop. She will borrow, take butts out of ashtray, anything. It's too much to ask. Either get help for both of them, or just wait until her next hospitalization. In the meantime...help them install smoke detectors everywhere, and no smoking in bed, watch for flammable fabrics, maybe restrict to a smoking area outdoors if they will agree but it has to be both of them or it will be too much to ask.
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Of course it's bad for her, but if she's been smoking for the last 50-60 years - it's hard to stop. It's a strong as people who can't stop eating all the wrong food. I've noticed that some obese people can be very outspoken and critical of people who smoke (killing themselves) when they are doing the very same thing with food. Everyone has their own pacifier. And some smokers will tell you they have no desire to stop - at all.

Since you are the guardian, I am assuming that means you took control of her money - out of his hand and in to yours. So that means he is correct that you should be buying what she needs. They live together and should be sharing the expenses and especially those that are only for her. It is kind of a neglect if you control the money and the both lived on the money previously.

How much did she smoke? 1/2 pack a day, a pack?? Go ahead and send the money but be specific that the cigarettes need to be doled out over xx period of time. And suggest he make her smoke outside now so she doesn't forget about having one burning in the house.

If she can't afford nursing home on her SSA money, apply for Medicaid to get into a nursing home bed. A doctor would have to say she needs round the clock facility care, so if she's not at that stage yet - she may stay put where she is for a while longer. In most states, Medicaid is not going to pay for assisted living or independent living - it's going to be NH or nothing. Check your state - Medicaid office can answer that question.
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BurntCaregiver May 2021
my2cents,

Speaking as a former smoker who started in childhood and had a pack a day or more habit for almost 35 years, and a person who has had struggles with obesity, I can say with conviction you don't know what you're talking about.
People can be overweight or even obese for many reasons. It's not always because they eat without restraint night and day.
A person who has a regular cigarette habit does it for one reason. They're an addict. No smoker ever really wants to quit. People who quit do it because they know they have to.
I love smoking. I've loved it since I was 11 years old, but I knew I had to put it down and I did.
I'm not elderly. If some elderly smoker lived long enough to become elderly, then let them have their cigarettes.
Let them have as many as they want. If the mother can't afford to pay for an AL or a nursing home, she won't be able to pay for one if she quits smoking either.
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We all have the right to make "poor decisions" and we all make them. Smoking may not be the best decision for her to be making at this point in her life but if she has smoked a good part of her life I would not take that from her.

I have worked with seniors who's family decided that they must quit smoking due to health reasons. The problem is that the senior had been smoking for over 50 years and the family decided they needed to stop, the senior did not want to.

I understand you are the guardian but you need to act in her best interest. Deal with the issues at hand. Try and arranges a smoking schedule for her so it is safe for her to smoke. Find someone else who will purchase them for her so you don't have to do this.

Many non-smokers will say that they want their parents to stop smoking because it is bad for their health. That is true but when I am working with a 90-year-old who has been smoking for over 50 years and the family wants them to stop because it is bad for their health and it could kill them - I just smile and say I don't think that is a reasonable argument at this point in their life.

Try to honor the wishes of your mother-in-law even though it is not what you would want for yourself. Put yourself in her shoes and then make the best decision you can.
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Smoking is such a strong addiction. I brought my brother to the ER and he actually lit up in the ER. Geeeeeez, I asked him to put the cigarette out. There was a guy next to us with an oxygen tank. He says, “Well, let me take a few drags and then I will put it out.”

I had to tell him that I was going to leave if he didn’t put his cigarette out in the ER. I told him that he could smoke his brains out once we left the hospital. They knew to put a patch on him once he was admitted because he had such a severe nicotine addiction.

It’s not an easy habit to break.
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Dear Alazrielle,
I am writing from the perspective of the patient. I was diagnosed with Early Onset ALZ five years ago in June. I am a cigar smoker. I voluntarily surrendered my drivers license last August when our DMV opened for walkin service, but stopped driving on my own back in March of 2020.. I now have to ask my DW or adult children to drive me to buy Lottery tickets twice a month. I solved the issue of buying cigars and having them send me 30 at a time, which lasts me about 1.5 mos. If MIL can't handle ordering them from a tobacco supplier, I'd tell DH, he needs to step up to the plate and arrange a solution to the purchase issue. I understand and respect, the fact that you don't want to be her supplier.
Hopefully, their is some unthought of advice here.
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I agree with Alva,
This disease takes things from you little by little.
Let her have what little she has left.
My Mom smoked her entire life.
At the end she forgot how to smoke and would
carry an unlit cigarette around all day.
Let her have a bit of comfort.
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This "friend" is well aware that your MIL law smokes. This person is most likely aware of the health risks associated with smoking as well as the risks to his/her home.

I suggest talking to the "friend." Talk about your reluctance to contribute to her "smoking" problem. Offer to bring nicorette gum and a limited supply of cigarettes. Tobacco is addictive and a hard addiction to break. Maybe you can discuss with this friend cooperating together to help reduce MIL's smoking. If "friend" is not willing to do this you have a few options:

1 - Take MIL into your home and help her to stop smoking. This is really the only way you can control how much tobacco she ingests.

2 - Get MIL into a facility that doesn't allow smoking. Get doctor's prescriptions for nicotine patches or nicotine gum. let the facility try to wean MIL off her nicotine habit.

3 - Buy the cigarettes that MIL needs while she continues to live with her "friend."
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Riley2166 May 2021
If you have a no smoking policy in YOUR home, YOU GET TO SET THE RULES.
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I've noticed several posts about not being able to afford the cigs. I do NOT see that anywhere in the OP or the profile. the poster states "Our end goal is to get her into a living facility, but that could take a while. We can't afford one for her and we don't think she can afford one on her disability." I read this to say that her MIL may not be able to afford a "living facility" on her disability, not that she cannot afford cigarettes.

Quitting cold turkey is harder for some than others. I quit the nasty habbit about 40 years ago while working a a prison guard. I hate the smell of cigs now and can't stand getting near someone who has the smell on them, their clothes and it seems, just the air around them.

There are some very good meds available today to help stop smoking, but they only work for someone who truly wants to stop. My wife started smoking again after having quit about 35 years ago. She went 25 years without smoking, but started hanging around some sorry neighbors who were a BAD influence on her. She started smoking cigs, pot and drinking. I don't know what else might have been going on. I finally sent her to her sisters home with the plan of her quitting the bad habits , mainly due to health reasons, or for her to file for divorce. I sent her nicotine gum, patches, and lozenges as she needed them. about 3 months later she was ready to return home. She continued the nicotine supplements for about 6 more months and to this day has not started again. Was I hard on her? Yes, but with COPD, oxygen, several strokes under her belt already(at that time), and her heart struggling to function, I did not think I had another choice.
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BurntCaregiver May 2021
garylee,

I'm glad you quit smoking. I was a child smoker (11 when I started) and I'm almost 50 now. I quit a year ago. One day at a time.
Alazrielle's MIL is elderly and her family's end goal is putting her in a care facility. Why take her cigarettes away now? The MIL lived long enough to become elderly being a lifelong smoker and all. Let her have her cigarettes. When they put her in a care facility she'll be lucky if they let her have one a week.
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Actually, Medicare does not pay for nursing home care for dementia. MIL will need to have actual nursing needs to be placed in a nursing home. If she has other health care needs you may be able to get a doctor to order nursing care. Good luck. This country is woefully inadequate when it comes to memory care help.
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disgustedtoo May 2021
"This country is woefully inadequate when it comes to memory care help."

Multifaceted problem. Some people never really made enough to "save" for their future needs (How many posts I've read lambasting people for not providing for their own needs!! Some who work minimal jobs never can put aside nearly enough to cover the costs needed), some frittered it away, so that IS on them for not having planned ahead, and some use the EC atty route to "hide" the funds and rely on Medicaid, thereby cheating those who truly need the help.

No one anticipated this tsunami of dementia we find ourselves in and it's projected to get worse. It is true that most Medicaid programs do not cover any AL or MC. A few states do cover some, but most likely the waiting list is miles long! Agreed also that people need to qualify for NH care (and Medicaid in general has requirements for the need - dementia alone isn't enough, rightly so, as NHs are for specialized nursing care, which dementia really isn't. Yes, they need care and oversight, but not generally nursing care.)

The current bill they are trying to get passed has some, but not all, benefits for care-givers and the needs people have in caring for a family member, but it's hung up. Much more will be needed to resolve the issues with dementia. So many people are struggling trying to provide the care and many have to give up jobs to do it, since there isn't money to cover a facility, thereby jeopardizing their own health and future financial needs as well! No extra money on hand to save and not working will reduce SS funds for that person as well. It's like a giant snowball heading down the mountain - it will only get bigger and more dangerous!
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You need to talk to your husband about that. Talk about she can burn the place down due to a neglected cigarette. Instead you can get her nicotine patches.

If she is on Medicaid nursing home placement is easy.

Some states do not allow smoking in facilities including nursing homes. Tobacco products prohibited include e-cigarettes or vaping. The danger is sometimes they explode and with oxygen delivery systems, the fire will be massive.
https://psnet.ahrq.gov/web-mm/e-cigarette-explosion-patient-room
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You are the in-law, step aside and let your spouse make these decisions.
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You're in a difficult situation. Are you giving her friend a stipend (from her disability) for her food and other personal expenses while she lives with him? Should it be enough to cover cigarettes? If so, then he should be living within the budget that she has. If she is not already on Medicaid, and if she is eligible, try to get her on it so that you'll have some options for putting her in a facility. Speak to a social worker in her area who can advise you on her options. When she moves to a facility they will not allow her to smoke anywhere on the premises.
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Isthisrealyreal May 2021
All of MILs money should be going to her living expenses.

Guardians can not use any of the money for themselves and she doesn't make enough to pay for facility services, so she will be a Medicaid recipient when she goes to a facility.
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Your MIL has so few pleasures left ...
it would be abusive at this point to refuse her cigarettes...
if you can’t afford some cigarettes
for her .. why would you fight so hard for guardianship???
it’s all about $$ for some caregivers...
put yourself in her shoes .. where’s the love ... she has so few pleasures
left ...
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disgustedtoo May 2021
"...it’s all about $$ for some caregivers..." OP says it's butts for MIL or food for her kids. There is NOTHING in guardianship that says you pay out of pocket for their needs.

There's nothing that says guardians get paid. Guardianship is a step up from POA, where you make decisions and can move someone to a facility, with court approval. Why would they fight for it? Because she needed oversight and was likely beyond POA ability.

If MIL has a pittance SS, it is more likely being paid to the "friend" so she can live there and eat. My mother's SS probably wouldn't have covered housing and food (thankfully dad's pension was good, she had savings and net from selling her condo, so that wasn't an issue for us.)

Also, she HAD been weaned off the butts and this "friend" got her hooked back on them! He wanted someone to smoke with. I'd have very little sympathy for that "friend."

It would be better to get her out of there, find a temp place until the facility has room and get her off the butts. If she's moving to MC or NH, she won't be able to smoke anyway.
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Get her a vape or e-cigarrette device so she doesn't make your home smell bad. She's in her last days so let the woman live.
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I doubt this would work.. but rationed to a pack a week? With funds diverted from her grocery money?

(That's how our backpacking share-house bought them anyway. Home brand bread, home brand baked beans & one pack of ciggies. Bad choice, yes, but our bad choice at the time).
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The facility where my relative lives does not permit smoking anywhere on their property. I think most places are like that now. Tapering off with the patch ahead of time could help a lot.
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Have you tried, or will MIL consider, any other kinds of nicotine delivery that aren't cigs? Vapes, lozenges, patches, etc. Those wouldn't contribute to fires or smoke damage in a house and are all considered harm reduction methods for smokers.

Getting her a chargeable vape with refills wouldn't be an expensive investment. She might adapt to them. If it were my MIL, I'd encourage her to vape at this point in her life. She's addicted to nicotine but there are safer ways to provide that to her.
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So, based on your previous posts, she was living with you, you rehomed her dog, she left, etc. Now, you are her guardian and she isnt living with you but with a friend. Are you paying him rent or caregiver fees to take care of her? That is your responsibility.

Even demented in a facility have a minimal personal needs allowance, what are you giving her?

No, within the scope of a guardianship, you do not have the right to tell someone they cannot smoke.
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rovana May 2021
Have to disagree here because of the danger factor (not health danger so much as starting a fire that could kill innocent people). It is a real deal IMO. Aren't there treatments for nicotine addiction?
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The hospital transitioned her off of cigarettes because they knew that being forced to quit cold turkey is unacceptable.

Send a small allowance for cigarettes before you are forced to take her into your home.

If you think it is rough now, have this person in your home and you will know what rough feels like.
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You and your spouse have guardianship over your MIL. That means both of you have full access to whatever money or assets she has and you make her decisions.
I'd say you and your spouse really dodged the bullet if the daily care of your MIL with dementia is not put on you. You're very lucky she's got a 'friend' who's doing it for you.
Get you MIL as many cigarettes as she wants. Pay for them out of her money which you have legal access to. Try to put yourself in her caregiver's shoes for a minute. You certainly should be nervous that refusing her might look like neglect. It is neglect if her guardians will not spend her money to get cigarettes for a person who is a lifelong smoker.
She's probably going nuts from nicotine withdraw and that's making her caregiver's job a lot harder. Don't make it too on him or he might just drop her off at her guardian's house. You.
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disgustedtoo May 2021
Based on a long post from OP, MIL was OFF the butts. Said "friend" got her back on them, to have someone to smoke with. He is responsible for this dilemma.

I would NOT spend a dime of my own money to buy her butts (this is what she's being told to do.) No idea what MIL's income is or what it's used for - one could assume it is minimal SS and it is needed for housing and food.

I would want her OUT of that friend's place ASAP and then get her off the butts again. If long term facility isn't available, find a respite place or a care home for the interim and get her out of the smoking den!
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i have not read your profile or the other posts yet.

I have never smoked, but quitting smoking is very hard, to force her to quit cold Turkey is cruel. I am not discounting the safety aspects.

Can you look into e-cigarettes, patches etc? An alternative that will give her nicotine more safely? I understand that with dementia she may not manage to learn to use these products.

Or ensure her smoking is fully supervised?
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Buy her the cigarettes*. Nothing has changed in her daily living circumstances that justifies your enforcing a ban; and you are ignoring the real distress that sudden cessation will cause a lifelong smoker.

If you wish, you can insist on smoke alarms and/or that she cannot be left unattended with matches or a lighter.

If I had my way, I'd also provide some sort of protective apron - a couple of weeks ago my ninety something year old client denied all knowledge of how the large circular hole with the singed edges could possibly have appeared in her skirt. I felt quite faint on her behalf.

* With her money, obviously. Not your own.
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disgustedtoo May 2021
I think this is where the real problem lies. It isn't the smoking (although it would be better if she didn't, esp if they plan to move her to a facility such as MC or NH) that OP is trying to ban. The question is whether OP is required to spend her own money to buy said butts. The answer is NO.
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Ive read all the posts so far. I have some questions. You state this is your MIL youre taking care of? Where is your husband in all this? Why is he not handling these situations? After all, it IS his mother, right? And please accept my apology if there is a reason your spouse is not able to handle this. I just dont get why we women are the “go to” when a spouses parents need help. In Nancy Reagans words, Just Say NO!
Sent with love and care for you…..
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