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My husband has heart failure and dementia and I have failing vision and complications from TBI and a recent stroke. We got a POA to take over her checking account approx 2 years ago due to a nephew who stole large sums from her bank account and used her name to open numerous credit cards and loans. The bank manager told us she refused to press charges. A neighbor called APS, who told us she could no longer live alone. We tried to have her placed in nursing home, but could not afford the 8,000 month cost. We moved to another city in MS, in hopes of finding a less expensive non-profit nursing home which would accept her. She has been placed on waiting list..in meantime she has been increasingly angier and hostile towards us, as she did not want to live with us, wanted to go live on her own. She has run away and reaches highway. We cannot control her. She has injured my husband by slamming a door on his hand and biting him, and kicks and pulls my hair, scratches with her nails, which she chews on and are ragged, yet she refuses to file/smooth them or let anyone else do so. Our health has deteriorated more since her stay with us. After she fell and broke her hip she was sent to rehab who discharged her because they did not use chemical restraint, and sent her to nearby hospital which did. Two nursing homes refused her due to behavioral issues and also because she was refused medicaid because she refused to press charges against the nephew. I was told to come get her. I told them no, that I could no longer care for her due to recent stroke , worsening vision and concerns re my husbands worsening heart condition and dementia. The social worker at hospital called few days later a saying they found a nursing home for her, and for me to come get ger and take her there. It is the first home which rejected her. I refused to come, as I was told she was penalized, and the nursing home called and asked me how long penalty phase was. I had called medicare and medicaid ro find out, but no one will return my calls. I cannot and will not go bring her back to our home. I will not sign any papers they are requesting I sign. Her other nephew refuses also. I am struggling to care for my husband and myself at this point. I hope someone reading this can help. We cannot afford legal help.

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It would be nice if the OP updated. Its been 2 wks. This problem has to have been solved by now.
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AlvaDeer Dec 11, 2023
Ah, Tim.
How sad.
I hope you'll remain to advise our OPs as they write in questions.
(Perhaps we can thereby move the meter up to a buck-fifty?)

If you notice, there is a whole lot of advice on this thread. And our OP for some reason chose from the beginning not to participate or to answer many questions. This happens on Forum likely 40% of the time. It's never good that, as it gets us talking to ourselves and one another instead of our OPs.

The truth is that CannotContinue got a whole lot of answers, including your own. Including the advice that an attorney in the OP's area be consulted. So she/he had lots to choose from.
That's what the Forum is about. And that's why some of us love it.

Stay and help our OPs. Leave, if you prefer. The choice is yours unless and until the admins decide this is perhaps not the best place for you to contribute advice.
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Do not allow yourself to be drawn into this situation, not even for a transfer.

No, you are not committing a crime, the APS is by not arranging for her transfer to much needed facility care.

Stand firm.
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You have my prayers. Call your local American Bar Association, they can help find you a pro-bono attorney to help you. Pro Bono means they offer legal services at no charge. You sound as though you're caught between a rock and a hard place, and I feel for you. People in her condition can sometimes have extraordinary strength, so if she comes back to your home, be aware of her location at all times. Blessings, Jazzy
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I think that you are doing the correct thing by doing nothing. Let the hospital social services provide transport for her to a memory care facility they choose. You and your husband cannot take care of her or be forced into it. Don’t fall for their pressures. She is a danger to others and herself. You have so much to manage with your and your husband’s health. Sending prayers for the entire situation.
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My BIL was in the hospital and we talked to the nursing home where he was going they said they would pick him up and bring him to the nursing home if he didn't have a ride.

I would not do anything with your SIL, I would take care of yourself that is the most important thing.

Prayers
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CannotContinue: Prayers sent.
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I did not say there were any agitators. We are here to answer OPs questions. Not have conversations between each other. We are not a "chat" group. We are an information forum. If we want to "chat" then go to discussions. I, for one, almost always read every reply to a post before I answer it. Very few times I haven't Sometimes I don't post because someone has already said what I was thinking. I don't spend my whole day on AC so I want to get thru these questions quickly. So, if a long post has nothing to do with the question asked, I skip it.
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The OP has not responded and its been a week. Would love to know how she was able to handle this.
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AlvaDeer Nov 28, 2023
Don't know if JoAnn is suggesting that the OP moved on while WE seem unable to do so ourselves, but if she is, then I am with her. Because that is EXACTLY what I think.
WHY our OP has moved on isn't really my business until she says so here, or returns with updates.

I disagree that "all discussions were important". And I doubt very much that our average OP here is so fragile that he/she cannot take the contrary opinion of one person amidst a swarm of well-wishers with good ideas.

Of late our threads--I have sometimes counted them-- have no OP returning to participate at all, while some of us go on endlessly on the question.
I once counted 7 LONG responses from one person out of a total of 19 responding posts.

I think this much wordiness without a participating OP becomes overwhelming. and unreadable to once and future readers.
Just my personal opinion. I imagine most others feel differently, and that's fine.

I will return to this post when our OP joins us again. I myself always love participation of our OPs on the threads.
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Go to the nursing home facility and talk to social services. You need direction and answers. Get her doctor starting she is a danger to herself and others, unable to care for herself.
Hope this helps,
LIsa in Alabama
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File an appeal with her Medicare. They have to give you the Important Message from Medicare that discusses your appeal rights. All you have to tell them is that you can no longer care for her in the home so there is no safe discharge and Medicare will not allow them to send her home to you.
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This is a rather late reply, but do you have a copy of the POA that you obtained 2 years ago? If so, do you know exactly your financial (and others, if any) powers and (as some others have asked) whether they were immediate or springing--in the latter case, your SIL would need to be/have been declared incompetent to handle her own affairs? The reason I'm asking these questions--which I'm not the first to bring up--is that it's not clear legally what your responsibilities are to your SIL? That's the first thing you need to ask an attorney.

I'm also wondering how your husband was able to be named as a POA if he had dementia--perhaps it was not yet evident 2 years ago? Also, if your SIL appeared to have dementia herself 2 years ago, she should not have been able to assign POA. Again, I'm wondering if it's possible that your responsibility for her is quite limited--which would be a good thing because you could be being asked/pushed/harrassed to do things for which you do not have responsibility. As others have said, we don't know! Your very next step needs to be making an appt with an attorney--many suggestions here on how to do this without funds--get your paperwork together, and get a better handle on your legal situation! Please let us know what happens. We really do care, and we are pushing you so you can get to a better place for you, your husband, and your SIL!
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I have to wonder how Cannot can get thru these posts. She has not even responded and who can blame her. We should not be using someone's question for personal conversations and long ones at that. If you want to start a conversation go to discussions.

The one post I read made a good point. What kind of POA does the OP have. Immediate or Springing where a doctor has to declare the person incompetent of making informed decisions to make it effective. If a Springing it may not be in effect but I don't think this is the case here. The problem here is the SW did find a NH but wanted the OP to transport. That is that problem. By transporting herself, she has taken on responsibility of SIL. I will bet when she got to the NH there would be problems and she would end up having to take SIL home with her. The SW IMO should have set up transportation to the NH from the hospital. There is a reason why she didn't.
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AlvaDeer Nov 24, 2023
You are so right, JoAnn.
The only relevant detail is whether OP is ACTING POA now for medical and financial for someone who is INCOMPETENT to act in her own behalf.
This would indicate responsibility under the law.
She can resign, but with an incompetent principle would have to do so legally with an attorney.

And JoAnn, I so agree with you. Something odd is happening on a lot of our posts lately, and they are often lengthy, repetitive and even argumentative regarding an OP who doesn't even participate, and who would be horrifically confused if he/she DID.
In truth I just looked at this post at the tops of the threads (where it can only remain with continuing comments) and thought "NOW WHAT" to come in and see you just addressed what I am feeling. I won't return to this post unless the OP returns.
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I do want to add to the fact that yes that much of this and what I personally said all comes down to the state and even the city you live in. Here in our state we have lots of attorneys that will do pro bono work on a partial pay basis not completely free but excellent work at a very reduced rate . I wanted to clarify that first and foremost since so many were feeling like I was trying to mislead you which at no point was I ever trying to do that. Also I want to tell you to be careful when speaking to social workers because here in my area when I spoke with our hospital social worker as my fathers DPOA out of concern for his well being I was informed by our hospital social worker that she would drop my father off on my front stoop and leave him there to die after my dad had a very small fall and needed a minor procedure and was in excellent shape and never took a Tylenol in his life because he didn’t believe in it. So that is where I’m coming from, it is a place of caution! I apologize if anything I said upset anyone who feels they are much more qualified at this elder care information. I am only speaking from personal experience!
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Jazzy1349 Dec 1, 2023
Dear Lord in Heaven! If she does such a hideous thing with your dad - she has in fact broken the law - abandonment of an elderly person. A lawsuit waiting to happen, in my opinion.
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To me this didn't read as a clear 'Granny Dump' situation. (Where 'Granny' or the person concerned is dropped at a hospital & the main caregiver refuses to collect. Refuses to provide care/accomodation as before).

Here, it seemed the Sister-in-Law was not permanently living with the OP & Husband - had a period of unstable housing, on her own, moving states, between rehab, hospital & NH.

I've never seen a 'dumped' person or 'found' from the street forced back to live with relatives if the realives said no. The Social Worker works to find a safe discharge plan. This can lead to pressure to return to their precious abode, maybe with more services added. But I have never heard anyone sued if they refused.

Here, the OP has been asked/told to collect SIL - not to take bacj to her home but to provide transport to the next NH.

I still maintain this is within the current facilitie's obligation.
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mstrbill Nov 23, 2023
Yes, agreed. Social worker needs to find a better way for all involved.
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I don't disagree that it may be helpful if OP talked to an attorney, as long as she doesn't pay one cent for it. The attorney could properly advise her on how or whether to sign admission paperwork that she correctly is reluctant to sign. Whether or not the attorney is going to do much for you without payment however is another story. Do not pay for an attorney if you don't have the money, it is not worth it.

I'm sorry, I'm angered by some of the recent posts by some newcomers here. A lot of misinformation that may unnecessarily frighten OP. What OP needs to do is calmly meet with the hospital social worker and/or APS social worker and calmly state that it is a dangerous situation at home for all parties, SIL, herself and her husband. Having SIL at home would put everyone at risk. It is not safe and it cannot happen. Period. It would be a violation of the SW's ethical standards to place SIL at home.

Social Workers' Ethical Responsibilities to Clients

I tried to link, it didn't work, but some of you may want to search and read what a social workers ethical responsibilities are. And one of them is NOT scaring sick family members who cannot adequately care for someone.

As far as the nephew stealing money, nobody can do anything about that unless the SIL wants to press charges. No prosecutor touches those cases because they don't succeed without the full cooperation of the victim.

Anyway, I'm done, OP if you are still following this thread, please don't be frightened by some of the nonsense you see here, please stick to your guns and look out for the health of yourself and your husband.
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GalligerTim Nov 22, 2023
Wrong ... Attorney Generals prosecute exploitation all of the time without elderly victims cooperation. What OP did is "granny dumping" and if you don't know what that is look it up. It's a crime and is also prosecuted. APS will not just back off from this.
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Omg, OP, can you PLEASE seek out the advice of a CERTIFIED ELDER CARE ATTORNEY immediately and disregard everything said to you by a forum of anonymous INTERNET users, including those who sound like they could be pros? Unless you are seeking opinions on what food to serve your loved one who can't chew for hurting dentures, take what's told to you with a grain of salt.

95% of the time, a CERTIFIED ELDER CARE ATTORNEY will offer you a free consultation, as mine did for me.

Best of luck.
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AlvaDeer Nov 22, 2023
OMG, I love you Lea!!!!
This is too cute.
Some of our threads are currently going so long and out of control I can't even remember the subject. This is adding to my 81 year old confusion, and already at least ONE Forum member has suggested to me that I get my head examined!
You are right and I want to echo it. CannotContinue: Get thee to an elder law attorney ASAP. Trust NO ONE. Do not pass GO. Do not collect 200.00 (or any other amount of money. SEE AN ATTORNEY now.
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Medicare will not help you with this and Medicaid is only for low income persons. If you have POA and the bank told you the SIL wouldn't press charges then why didn't you press charges? You could've mitigated this situation had you been proactive in contacting the police. A POA is supposed to protect a person's assets and not fail to notify authorities when funds go missing. The penalty will not go away for a long time unless you as the POA takes action against the one who financially abused her. There is no limit on months of ineligibility depending on the amount of funds. It seems like she was a willing participant in giving her son all of that money and loans. You do realize elder abuse and neglect is serious and there are state and federal laws prohibiting such action? Agencies who are in charge to protect vulnerable adults aren't going to play around with you. You are on their radar as a perpetrator if you say they are threatening abandonment. There are posts saying you dropped her off at the hospital and then posts saying she was transferred from one hospital to the next. I'm unsure if you are telling the whole story, but if you cannot afford legal help then you need to seek legal aid immediately. It doesn't seem like you and your spouse need to be living alone yet taking care of another vulnerable adult and managing their finances. You need to relinquish POA if you can't or are unwilling to take care of the elderly woman. You need to communicate with the hospital and APS as others have said and not ignore them. DON'T sign ANYTHING but don't ignore them. Your problem will not go away and your silence will make you look like a perpetrator.

Please don't believe some of the posts on here about APS not taking this seriously or working with law enforcement. Please don't take legal advice from anyone other than an attorney. I can tell you law enforcement works closely with APS here in New York.

https://brookdale.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/APS-and-the-Police-A-Partnership-to-Protect-Vulnerable-Adults.pdf
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AlvaDeer Nov 22, 2023
As I said, Tim. APS has powers to investigate and report.
But they cannot on their own swoop in if you don't pick mama up at the nursing home and you are her POA. They will investigate.
If APS finds ANY problems (and there certainly may well be some here) then this will become a notification that there will be a court hearing.
In that court hearing the POA will be responsible to report all their actions, answer for their actions, and more, have a record of every single penny into and out of the person's accounts in any way.
POA doesn't allow one to "take over accounts" as this OP says. POA allows one to write checks for the principle as directed by them or in their best interest. And this must be kept carefully accounted for.
It is not APS that will judge this person, but a court. It is not APS that will appoint a State Appointed Guardian if required; it is the court and they will choose the fiduciary.
About one thing you are ABSOLUTELY correct. This person need the advice of an attorney, and now.
Whatever is happening her sounds like a royal mess. As a bunch of folks out here cooking Thanksgiving dinner, all of whom have divergent opinions, we are the last ones to go to for advice when the authorities (And APS is a branch of all that) appear. THis is a legal issue and the OP needs all ducks lined up in a row, accounted for, and in black and white, with proof, on paper.
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Remember there’s a huge difference between a DPOA and a POA. All of this depends on how it’s written up. If you’re only responsible for keeping up with the financial transactions then you are not responsible nor are you her legal guardian. They are letting murderers out without bond and go free. I’m sorry I just can’t see them coming after you when they can’t even do their own job and protect her or you the family and public. It’s crazy go ahead and talk to APS you will find out they are probably in your favor given the situation. Also legal aid is a great place to start for help and many lawyers will do pro bono work as well when asked and it gives them a great tax write off. However do not sign anything or take on any responsibility whatsoever in this case. Don’t allow anyone at a hospital ever to intimidate you into doing something you don’t feel comfortable with, I don’t care if they say their a social worker, nurse doctor or management because they can be ruthless! Also if the POA was not done by an attorney or recorded at the county recorders office and you have the copies chances are nobody knows it even exists but the person who notarized it.
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Ape WILL do somethin. Aps and the hospital is not going to stop calling you and will file charges if you leave patient at the hospital. if you continue to ignore them they will get you for desertion if patient is demented and elderly person. the police will come to your home looking for you and arrest you. from what it look like the patient lived with you and your husband so you voluntarily took on a caregiver role for her. U have assume power of attorney and if you signed her into a hospital you assumed responsibility for her care and discharge. if u had the intention of dropping her off and not picking her up then that is criminal intent. As frustrated and worn out as you may be it's in your best interest to work with them to find care for her. if you can't do it then you can't but ignoring won't help you. Abandonment will follow you for the rest of your life. they will remove your demented husband from your care if U are convicted in criminal court of abandonment. they will see you can't take care of your husband and make him a ward of the state. TAKE IT SERIOUSLY PLEASE.
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MargaretMcKen Nov 22, 2023
Unless Ladybug is a lawyer who knows something I don't know, her post is absolute rubbish. Ladybug, please post your professional qualifications and experience in this field, because if you are guessing (and I'm fairly sure you are), your post is totally irresponsible. Margaret McKenzie LLB FCCA
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I do not understand that the APS 'threat of abandonment' is - means for you, legally. What exactly did they say and, more importantly, provide you in writing.

"If" you signed her into a hospital or facility, then you need to get your name off those records. If you cannot do that by yourself, you need an attorney.
I do not know what legal authority / responsibilities you have / signed to take on..

LOW INCOME ATTORNEY SERVICES______________________________
There are low income attorney resources available (individuals or organizations).
(1) Check your county. (2) Contact your County's Government / Senior Services and ask for legal aid referrals. (3) Google "low-income attorneys in your county."

You indicate you / she (?) 'got' a POA two years ago.
Who is this person and what is their current responsibilities, legally?

Appears that she needs a conservative or be a ward of the state (if you / no one is taking legal responsibility of her).

If you signed her into the hospital, legally you 'likely' took responsibility for her welfare. Read what you signed, if you signed a document admitting her.

At the very least, she might do better with medication to control her anxiety, depression, behavior. Someone needs to contact her MD to discuss.

Gena / Touch Matters
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mstrbill Nov 22, 2023
It doesn't mean anything legally. It is an empty threat. APS cannot charge you, they have no legal authority. They can refer cases to prosecutors, but prosecutors very rarely seek charges, only in the most egregious cases. This case would get laughed at by a prosecutor.
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So sorry you are going through this. You said you tried to put her in a nursing home but couldn’t afford the $8000/month cost. The payment for the nursing home should come out of HER money, not yours. If she was rejected by Medicaid because they think she has more money (that was actually stolen) then you MUST report the theft.
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Having POA does not require one to place the patient. Guardianship would, but not POA. Again, APS can do nothing to you, they are trying to scare you to get her off their hands. This is really their job to deal with difficult situations such as this.
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Most localities have some legal aid program. You should probably be able to get a legal consult free or at a very low cost. And if there is a cost, it might be possible that it's charged to your sister since you are her POA.
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Take care of your own health and your husband’s needs. You have enough on your plate.

What an awful situation to be placed in! You shouldn’t have to transport her. I would absolutely refuse to do this no matter how much they threaten you. They can transport her to the facility.

Are you going to continue to be her POA?
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TouchMatters Nov 22, 2023
Threats also need to be put in writing.
If she doesn't have this documentation, there is no threat (as I believe).
Still, as others say here (and I did to), find a low-income attorney or organization to provide legal advice.
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Let the hospital know that you are unable to care for her in any capacity due to your health and your husband's health. Ask the hospital to get her a guardian ad litem appointed buy the courts to take over decision-making for her.
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TouchMatters Nov 22, 2023
Everything needs to be in writing.
Good advice. Thank you.
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Tell them that the State will need to take over her care. That you and DH are not in the position to care for her since you now care for a husband with heart and Dementia problems. As said, the hospital can set up transportation to the NH. Do not pick her up. You will then be responsible for her.

When my Mom was in a NH she was sent to the hospital. When she was discharged I took her back to the NH only to be told they would not except her back. She needed to be transported by a transport. No one told us this. We returned back to the hospital and was told we needed to sit in the waiting room until they got a transport that would take an hr. It was 11pm. The NH called and said to bring Mom back. The shift supervisor took pitty on us and called her boss who gave the OK for us to bring her back. I am saying this because u may get Sis to the NH and be turned away. Then ur stuck with her.

Stick by your guns. You can no longer be responsible for Sis. The SW is going to have to handle the situation. Thats their job.
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AlvaDeer Nov 21, 2023
They got POA. That makes them responsible if she's no longer competent and they will have to use APS and/or attorney to resign. Which I believe they should do.
Meanwhile NO ONE can force anyone to pick up anyone.
If they are threatened with a suit they should respond "Please, do go for it; my easiest way to resign before the court as POA which I cannot manage for this person".
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APS doesnt do Much they do Paperwork and then forget you exist. They have No authority or Power with the Police . Really sure Not what It is they do But a House call and document But then your case will be erased a couple Months Later . You Can always ask for the head Of APS and file a formal complaint against any One who threatens you that is Not their Job .
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You are a POA.
Your principle is no longer competent.
You seem totally unable to manage this legal financial fiduciary duty under the law.
You need to resign.
And, sorry, but because she is no longer seemingly comptent, you NEED AN ATTORNEY, so if that means other bills go unpaid, you go on beans and rice for a while, is fine.
In normal circumstances you would already have placed SIL and been responsible for her finances, so your POA attorney needs would be paid by Sister's income.
But in all this mess that's likely impossible.
You are now legally responsible for a person you can't control.
She needs State guardianship.

Because SIL is apparently suffering dementia she is out of control and needs placement. From your note to us it is pretty clear to me that you are NOT going to be able to accomplish all of that. Ask APS to assign you in resignation and tell them you are unable to perform as POA. They may be able to help you do this legally WITHOUT AN ATTORNEY. Worth a try. A legal letter means you give up being POA in any way and request state guardianship of SIL. You are then no longer responsible, nor do you have any power at all over her placement, funds. Let any and all banks, other entities know that you are no longer POA.
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I would tell this social worker that "Threats and Intimidation" is a crime.

Then I would tell them that it is an UNSAFE DISCHARGE because you DO NOT have the ability to provide the level of care your sister in law requires. Period!

They are full of crap telling you that you have to transport her, EVERY facility will pick up a resident that they have accepted. Call her on that lie and ask if that's part of her training or is that her brain child.

Stand firm, every single person faced with this situation has been lied to by a supposed social worker. They wouldn't be threatening you if they could actually cause you problems, they would just contact the authorities.
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MaryKathleen Nov 28, 2023
you got it right
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APS ‘threatening me with abandonment’? Oh really? Ask them for details of the legislation which would constitute ‘criminal abandonment’ on your part! Say you want it in writing, and you will be taking it to a lawyer to check, together with the Ombudsman if appropriate. Do nothing until you get it in writing, on letterhead and signed.

Lawyers are often made POA, and I can assure you that they don’t personally pick up people from hospital. This is a particularly nasty piece of illegal pressure, and needs calling out. Margaret
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BurntCaregiver Nov 22, 2023
Margaret,

APS is blowing smoke out of their a$$. They're making threats because they don't want to have to do their actual job and find a facility to take the SIL. So they're trying to scare the OP into taking care of her.

I had a visiting nurse threaten me once with APS because I went out for a cigarette (I smoked in those days) while the client was asleep. She saw me outside the porch and completely flipped out.

I explained that I wasn't a security guard. Then I handed her the phone, asked if she wanted me to dial the number for her, and ended by telling her in no uncertain terms to 'something'-off. She did nothing and reported to no one.

No one called APS or anyone else. They like to make threats, but rarely does anyone (APS included) take any action.

Doing something about a situation would mean doing some actual work. The visiting nurses who stop in for five minutes or APS social workers are perfectly happy to never do any work and to leave all of the responsibility up to a family or whatever homecare aide gets put on the assignment.

This has been my personal experience with APS and visiting nurses. There have been a few exceptions, maybe eight or ten, over the last 25 years that actually did their jobs.

They will always be generous with the patronizing and threating of family members and support staff though.

In a nutshell, they're really nothing to worry about.
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